Curse

unmatchedfury · Nov 15, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Okay first off, i won't say that rits are completely useless. They can protect, kind of, they can heal, they can damage, and since nightfall they can melee. But they lack being able to do any of these things in the same build, or ebing flexable enough to do two fo these things at once, so if one thing it does gets shut down it can switch around a bit.

With the addition of lots of skills to help melee classes that are attached to spawning, and therefore unusable for a class that could actually use it, I must assume that Anet wants the rit to be a jack-of-all-trades type class.

Here is the reasoning for that.
1.) with spirits strength and 15+ armor when under the effect of a weapon+ sight beyond sight, and several other skills pertaining to melee it appears that Anet wants the rit to be able to(don’t laugh) be able to melee, or even tank..

2.) Secondly probably the most well known function of the rit team protection, ( now coverable and better done by paragons.) was hit pretty hard by the nerf bat so as t be not worth wasting a spot for in GvG, because the rit can’t really bring anything else to the table, while still only being able to do one job.

3.) Heal, this is what rits in pugs are generally asked to play thanks to a lack of monks.(such as pugs still exist) And they can do it with out stopping for all intents and purposes. But they aren’t very good at stopping spikes, as a matter of fact they suck at it. There only spike stopping skill is transfer soul, which heals for 237 in ¼ a second for 10 mana.4 second cool down. But it takes a healthy chunk of nearby spirit with it, The main problem with healing is , as a said before, no preprot and no way to stop any form of damage outside the steady pressure kind. With all other healing skills taking a second to cast(beside mend body and soul) Weapon of warding and resilient weapon are quite good, but they can’t stack and are, in the case of weapon of warding, very interruptible. Again rits fall short in this category despite good energy management

4.) Finally channeling. It can apply a form of easily stopped pressure,(pure elemental dmg has never been very good) the rit has very good E-management in AwS. Thus it keeps going very well. But with no armor pierce or degen type condition (hellllllllllooo fire) it lacks in the pressure department compared to other classes. And although it does do about as well as a warrior, while being ranged, it lacks KD, Interrupts, Conditions, and the ability to spike. The same build aren’t able to do the wide range of things a warrior can do as well as pressure at the same time.( I know some of you ritualist fans will rise up and proclaim WHAT! My rit can dmg! I went 30 wins in TA with it, or some such garbage. Believe me, the rit is my favorite class. But I won’t deny the facts and say the rit can really do anything better than other classes( except for two notable differences.)

Let me really quickly point out two things the rit does do well.
1. E-management. The ritualist has a heap of E-management elites Everything from energy when summoning things to energy gained by killing something to energy while casting weapon spells.(energy gained by casting a non stackable enchant OH NOES!)

2. The rit can offensively control an area by itself better than any other class, Any one in TA/RA./HvH knows this. making it death to venture into the area the rit has his “turrets” set up. Unfortunately the offensive spirits are bugged to, not attack when you aren’t being attacked, not attack when your attacking, not attack when your running, not attack when your dead, not attack the same target, ignore 10% hp targets and attack 100% targets.. I think you may get the idea.A way to control what the spirits do and don’t attack would help ALOT.

Finally the real end fact is this, whether you choose to agree with me or not. The fact that rits are not used in GvG or high end PvP in general is unavoidable.

I’d like to ask, are the reasons I’ve stated really why this is so? do rits need a buff in some areas? DO they need a reworking? Or are they just destined to be the Jack of all trades/sucks at everything class all MMORPGs seem to have? Or ( And I defiantly don’t think the signs point this way..) they are perfectly fine lrn2playnub.

EDIT: I'm saying that ritualists have far to many contidtional spells, and what their supposed to be good at turns into a curse (the fact that they must stay in one area near spirits to really be on par) they're ment to be area controllers, but its hard to keep that balenced and not making them overpowered when naer spirits ( as RA offensive spirits are)

In otherwards , this is a confused class, its not really good at anything, single builds lack diveresety, in order to meet conditional requirements 2 rits are required. it needs buffing in a few areas. and some of its elites really really need help.

Drewfense · Nov 15, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Na ritualists aren't bad, they are just complicated (and no they don't need buffing). The defensive rit lord was a very strait forward build so it became prevalent very early in factions. Similarly, the healing rit is a very simple concept and is only really held back because healing sucks. After those roles, the rit has a lot of indirect skills that are effective, sometimes overpowered, but aren't as easy to tap into. A few guilds have used rits extraordinarily well. VIBE at the end of last season had a nasty NR/Tranq build using two rits with warrior buffing. The most successful spike teams in early 6v6 HA (pre heroway) where rit imo. Also the occasional rit pressure build has been seen on the ladder and they huuuuurt. The problem really is the pvp community sucks at developing new builds. Everyone prefers to just copy from a few guilds at the very high end (Ex. dslash was crap until iGi ran it). Until top tier teams use them, they will remain in the "suck column."

The exact same thing is happening with this chapter. Paragons were the first to become popular because by design they are very strait forward (the most complicated thing is an echo lol). The dervish on the other hand saw ZERO play at the start of the season (except by dV, but they cheat, they have Warskull). The class is even now not seeing significant play despite Scythe attacks having rediculously overpowered crits. Dervishes are much more complicated because their skills are intertwined with managing enchantments. Really any builds you see at the moment for the dervish are still very simple in nature.

Edit: Figured I would add another example, EkSk developed a fairly effective weapon spell rit ganker.

Squirrelly · Nov 16, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I don't think rits suck it's just that IMO everything they can do another class can do more efficiently. I like the party wide coverage provided by spirits but decent monking and a linebacker would accomplish about the same thing except vs spike. However in that case you just spent like 13e on shelter to stop a single spike...GJ. As healers they are good at topping off, but I'd rather have the versatility of a HP E/Mo.

Seamus Finn · Nov 16, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

I would LOVE for rits to get a hex managemetn skill in the restoration line, then I could have some real fun with my rit. I think this is the main reason I find rit healers to be lacking -- you have to sub either mesmer or monk to cover that one utility or place it on another character. Basically, rits seem to have a place where the builder takes great care to give him support. That's as far as using a rit as a monk that is. Actually, I would like to know the base ganker build because I've been thinking that there's enough utility in the rest line to make a base ganker/assister in a duo or even flagger.

Dragannia · Nov 17, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35

You could make a Rit work in a GvG build, only that a lot of your team has to built around him/them. Or so they say, my guild hasn't used Rits for a long long time.

TofuMoe · Nov 17, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

If only there was a place in GvG for a well armored, energy efficient healer that can cast unstripable buffs....

Drewfense · Nov 17, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TofuMoe

If only there was a place in GvG for a well armored, energy efficient healer that can cast unstripable buffs....

NR/tranq

deathy · Nov 19, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

NR/tranq

I think he meant Paragon

unmatchedfury · Nov 19, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TofuMoe

If only there was a place in GvG for a well armored, energy efficient healer that can cast unstripable buffs....

this threads about ritualists not paragons. ... Or whatever class yourtalking about because as far as i knew paragons weren't really healers.

Drewfense · Nov 20, 2006, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Not sure about the well armored, but ritualist do fit under healing (restoration) and unstripable buffs (weapon spells), both of which function unhindered under NR/Tranq. The main problem is finding a suitable spike counter for a rit.

Similar things can be said about a paragon, but as unmatched said, there are enough threads on that already.

Patccmoi · Nov 20, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

I'm working on making a Rt build again. Well, not 'Rt build' but 2-3 Rts, 1 Communing, 1 Channeling and maybe 1 Resto (though with Nightfall i think that monks got a MUCH better update than Resto Rt so i might just go with 2 Monks and forget the Resto). I'm actually considering making a Channeling/Resto hybrid (15 Chan/14 Resto/4 Sp, using Life for base spirit instead of Destruction, GwT for item and MB&S for heal and condition removal, with a spirit base it can act a bit like Draw. Caretaker's Charge as elite, though i thought this skill was just a sucky jack of all trade skill at first glance i like it a lot now just cause it's easy constant emanagement that doesn't require any spirit or investment in spawning to work).

One of the main reason to have a Channeling Rt now is to have Warmonger Weapon imo. That thing is pretty insane, making someone's attacks interrupt any non-attack skill for 15s. Likely to be combined with my WoQ Communing Rt since then Warmonger's recharge goes down to... 15s. So you can have someone nearly permanently interrupting with all attacks, and if that's a sin or a War with a pretty constant IAS i think it's devastating. I tried just for fun in Isle and an Assassin in Flurry not using any skill with Warmonger kills Master of Healing in about 10s, the only thing he got off was about 1/2 RoF. I also destroyed Master of Enchant the same way, interrupting his Shielding Hands, Prot Spirit... Ofc in game that wouldn't happen as easily, but in game you would use skills too! Nothing else in any other class can compare to Warmonger Weapon, and being able to keep it up pretty much permanently on a war, sin or even Paragon is pretty awesome.

Spirits remain one of the few things still damaging full strength with Paragon buffing AL of everything to ridiculous level so that's useful too. And Communing Rt with Weapon of Quickening is awesome to buff Channeling Rt and Mesmers.

I think i have a really solid 2 Rt setup atm but we'll need to test it out and see how it goes. Our last Rt build was really efficient before NF came out and this updated one should do well too.

Riotgear · Nov 20, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

They need a rework. Several key points:

- Spirit scaling issues. Shouts, wards, wells, Aegis, and nature rituals have time limits. Ritualist protection spirits have charge limits. The only way to keep that and have them viable in 8v8 is to make them overpowered in other formats. Note how the afforementioned mass-effect skills (and others, i.e. Heal Party) are similarly weak in 4v4. However, it's generally better that scaling causes something to be underpowered in a format than overpowered in it.

- Restoration has a bit of an identity crisis. Namely, it's a line dedicated to doing what there is already an entire class dedicated to.

- Channelling has the same problem as Restoration.

Right now, what they need to do is just go back to the drawing board and ask "what do we want ritualists to be really good at?" and rebalancing the class based around an objective instead of a concept.

Former Ruling · Nov 20, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Ritualists have a nice dmg attribute...with no utility.

Ritualists have a nice healing attribute...that is totally trumped by a monk's options.

Ritualists have a nice Spirit Casting selection...That was nerfed, then trumped by the Paragon.

Ritualists have a nice primary attribute...that is one of the most limited in the game (Dervishes and paragons both have primaries that are limited to what they do best also [enchants and shouts respectively], but atleast provide for some secondary use)

So yea...first post over again.

Terra Xin · Nov 20, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

OP. Your thread title and your first post are conveying two completely different things. Overall, are you saying that Rits suck or not?

The examples that you have given are more closely related to problems in PvE, rather than GvG. The greatest liability a Ritualist brings to the table is the need to rely on spirits. Because every single experienced guild knows this, the first target becomes the spirits, therefore making the Ritualist (in those perspective builds) useless. Not many have ventured into builds that don't use Spirits at all... perhaps of their inhibility to prevent spike damage, or perhaps there is only a single strategy to GvG, that is having control of the flag stand.

My solution would be to create a higher variety of GvG strategy, it would even be nice to remove the element of the flag stand altogether - just as a test - to see what happens.

Other than that, I don't see why there would be a problem with rits in any other gaming perspective. They have similar reputations to the assassin by which it was originally overplayed and given a bad reputation, but it also shares issues with the mesmer, and its general 'unpopularity' people seem to have towards them.

If Ritualists were included into GvG more frequently, a hybrid form of channeling and a secondary attribute line would be my favourite path to take. Aside, the only nightfall skill that has promoted Melee form is Spirit's Strength, which... if you use in GvG there is clearly something wrong with you. Other than that, Nightfall has introduced the better unisen of Ritualist and Paragon, Ritualist and Warrior, Ritualist and Assassin, Ritualist and Dervish, Ritualist and Elementalist. If you want some examples, reply to this post^^.

Patccmoi · Nov 20, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Ritualists have a nice dmg attribute...with no utility.

Ritualists have a nice healing attribute...that is totally trumped by a monk's options.

Ritualists have a nice Spirit Casting selection...That was nerfed, then trumped by the Paragon.

Ritualists have a nice primary attribute...that is one of the most limited in the game (Dervishes and paragons both have primaries that are limited to what they do best also [enchants and shouts respectively], but atleast provide for some secondary use)

So yea...first post over again.

Actually Channeling now has some utility in NF with Warmonger Weapon and Gaze of Fury. Warmonger allows for some MASSIVE interruption and i would even say shutdown cause playing with it some it's pretty impressive to see a BLight getting his Return, Spirit Bond and RoF interrupted back to back. Throw it on a Shadowprison Sin and make him go combo a monk... that monk will have a HELL of a hard time saving himself with nearly 2 attacks/second hitting him (with Burst on) and any of them interrupting. Gaze of Fury, while having a somewhat limited utility, kills a spirit straight. Any spirit, including foes, AND it creates an offensive spirit for you at the same time (which ofc you can use along with say Destruction or Pain to make sure that even if the other team doesn't have spirit it's not a wasted skill slot). A straight kill on any spirit is utility imo. And there's also non-elite and elite EManagement, even a self-heal with Caretaker's. Utility is actually there imo.

Restoration has some advantages that monks don't and is really efficient, but overall a Resto Rt has a hard time replacing a Monk in GvG or the like because of movement problems. Their best heals require spirits in the area or in cast range to work and this makes it hard to heal efficiently on the run. If you're in spirit range, a Resto Rt is as good as a monk honestly (but you need to get some extra stuff from your secondaries since you lack hex removal, so often i'll go Rt/Me for Expel or Rt/Mo for Divert Hexes or the like). But as a secondary line it has a big advantage on monks because it doesn't require anything else than Restoration while most of monks skills are really horrible without Divine Favor (Orison of Healing without Divine Favor doesn't compare at all with Resto heals for example). It has the Life Steal weapon concept that is interesting and that they decided to buff in Nightfall but that doesn't make for a primary healer, just support. And for support there's often better choices.

Offensive spirits are one of the few unique things Rt have. No other class can use turrets to defend certain points. The problem imo is how many of them are 25E, which limits you to elite emanagement but then you have a recharge problem... I dunno, it seems to me that many spirits in there are kinda overpriced considering they are offensive spirits so they need to be in range and can be killed. Why would you spend 25E for a spirit that is likely to be killed by a Thumper in the next 5-10s... For a spirit like Soothing or Recup, i can understand because those can be left out of fight range and can sometimes be really hard for the other team to take down efficiently, but for fighting spirits 25E just kinda kills them.

I think that one of the big asset of Rts is that they DO NOT require their primary line for Resto or Channeling. Channeling spell costs are incredibly low if you compare them to elementalists in general, and Resto heals heal as much and sometimes more than a heal + divine favor. This allows for being efficient at more than one thing in the same build, and that's what i'm trying to take advantage of atm with my Channeling/Resto hybrid, and what many people in RA are doing with Communing/Resto hybrids. Being able to heal efficiently while nuking efficiently can be really useful for 2-3 men splits for example. I think this is really what ANet is pushing for with the Rts. But i agree that atm they have too few money skills that can hardly be done by another profession. I think that Warmonger is one of these as i said, but when you have too few money skills they'll often just be used by /X than the primary class. I mean, a Mesmer or Ele could use Warmonger Weapon just as well by going /Rt, and i really wouldn't be surprised to see it in the future especially since many Mes are /Rt already.

Div · Nov 20, 2006, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Ritualists are nicely used in RA still because of the great support it provides to the monk in the group and its ability to deal some damage through spirits. However, in many of the other types of pvp (gvg, HA) rits are the jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none, so no one really wants them in a group anymore, especially after the nerf

Riotgear · Nov 20, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

rits are the jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none, so no one really wants them in a group anymore, especially after the nerf

Rangers are also a jack of all trades, so that's not exactly a reason by itself.

Dahnel · Nov 20, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Ritualists still can pump out extreame amounts of area based firepower to hold locations, since in gvg its all about tactics and outplaying your enemy, i would'nt want to fight for the flagstand AGAINST such insane DPS, especially when melee is your main source of offense.

I also remember when we played a guild (cant remember name, sorry :P) that ran a single offensive spirit spammer as their choice of defense against splits to protect their archers. Held off most of our attempts at ganking some NPCs ><.

Dark Helmet · Nov 20, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Ritualists don't do enough damage with Channeling (a lot of spells, even maxed out, only do ~50 damage, which isn't really useful), can't protect efficiently now that Shelter's been taken out, and no PUGs will take you in Factions ("Wtf, if u dun have a mo secondry, u cant heal!!").

I haven't unlocked Warmonger's Weapon (adrenaline and energy buff, right?), but it seems to be the only thing a Ritualist is good for now. The elites Ritualists got in Factions weren't so great either... either buffs to casting other spells, e-management, or niche spells that didn't see much use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

My solution would be to create a higher variety of GvG strategy, it would even be nice to remove the element of the flag stand altogether - just as a test - to see what happens.

Isn't that what Tombs used to be?

Thomas.knbk · Nov 20, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

rits are the jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none, so no one really wants them in a group anymore, especially after the nerf

Keywords are 'but the master-of-none', as opposed to rangers who are the masters of snare and interrupt. (no, mesmers are not better at interrupting than rangers and eles are not better at snaring)